Curse

Xyngynkynyn · Sep 17, 2006, 01:43 AM // 01:43

The assassins' primary attribute Critical Strike increases the chance of an attack doing a critical hit. According to GuildWiki, while the exact formula for how critcal hits is calculated isn't known, the attacker and target's level do factor in that equation.

After taking my assassin to Tyria and doing the Ascalon missions, I can vouch for this seeing as how nearly all my strikes were criticals. But this also made me realize some things about an assassin in the top-level areas: namely, mob assassins do more damage while player assassins do less.

Top-level areas usually have monster levels in the range 24-28 with some special bosses (like Glint) at level 31. Oni's for instance are level 28 so when attacking level 20 players, they tend to do insane spike damage which I now suspect is because they're doing critcal hits 90+% of the time (the number's my gut feel and nothing more).

I'm more concerned though on the player assassin's plight on this issue. This isn't an issue in PvP because you can more or less count on everyone to be level 20; but it's a different story in PvE. Obviously, a player's assassin will score less critical hits against level 24+ mobs thereby reducing their damage output which I believe was calibrated vs. lvl 20 opponents. Furthermore, skills like Critcal Defense and Way of Perfection activate less often because of the way critical hits are calculated. This translates to less defense the higher the enemy's level is. This is, if I'm not mistaken, unique to the assassin alone.

I'm actually more concerned about Critical Defense and Way of Perfetion activating less often rather than the lesser damage output but ANet may want to re-examine critical hit calculation as pertains to the assassin rather than jury-rig Critical Defense and Way of Perfection to fire off as often as if the opponent were level 20.

So should the assassin's primary attibute Critical Strike do more than just increase the chance of a critical hit? Should having points in it bias the target's level to be closer if not equal to that of the assassin's if it's higher?

Peace,
Xyngynkynyn

Hockster · Sep 17, 2006, 01:54 AM // 01:54

Why should assassins get special treatment? Every characters class does somewhat less damage on normal attacks against high level foes. You always get the +damage listed in attack skill descriptions, that's where most of the damage comes from anyway.

pve-er · Sep 17, 2006, 02:22 AM // 02:22

GW is a team game, please don't try to make each of the charactor capable to solo mobs on its own.
Chance of criticle strike for Assassin already much higher then other profession.
for the critical defence and way of perfection issue, ANet already buff Critical Strike by reducing its cost to 5e with recharge of 6 sec. so it can be spammable to keep critical defence up, and they already buff in the amount of healing from Way of Perfection (yeah, but I wish to seeit even higher, higher is better. compare to vigorous spirit, WoP give health ONLY when criticle strike ocur, they should give more health bonus to WoP cuz the low late of activation).

Xyngynkynyn · Sep 17, 2006, 03:56 AM // 03:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hockster

Why should assassins get special treatment? Every characters class does somewhat less damage on normal attacks against high level foes. You always get the +damage listed in attack skill descriptions, that's where most of the damage comes from anyway.

Target level only factors in critical strikes as far as I can tell and based on all material I can find on how damage is calculated in Guild Wars. In other words, a lightning bolt that does 50 net damage on a level 20 will do 50 net damage on a level 40 all other things being equal. If it seems like higher level monsters are getting less damage then I'm inclined to believe it's because they have more armor rather than because they are of a higher level. I may be wrong in this but my entire point-of-view stems from the fact that Critical Strike is the only attribute that loses effectiveness the higher the target's level is relative to the attackers.

Assassins depend on critical hits for energy management and some defensive skills. I'm not even touching damage loss from failed criticals because I'm more concerned about defense and energy management and they seem to be balanced vs. lvl 20s.

Does an elementalist's energy storage decrease because the target has a higher level? He/she may have to cast more and deplete energy but that's due to armor and other defensive skills. Assassins have to deal with the same things AND target level.

Does 12 Soul Reaping give 12 energy for the death of a level 20 target but only 9 at the death of a level 30? Assassin's get less energy back because of the higher target level. What other profession gets lesser energy simply because the target is 10 levels higher? Aren't the other assassin skills balanced off of Crtical Strikes' energy management mechanism? Isn't the mechanism balanced vs. level 20 targets?

Warriors with 10 strength will get 10% armor penetration vs. a lvl 20 and a lvl 30. The only known factor of high target level has on a warrior's damage is in dealing critical strikes which the warrior doesn't depend on for energy management or defensive skills.

My point is assassins deal with the same things as the other professions but their energy management as well as some defensive skills are tied to critical hits which is influenced by target levels. The assassin's attributes and skill design is (I believe) calibrated for PvP play where >20 level targets don't factor in (until Flesh Golems were introduced and even then aren't commonly used). It's my worry that given that, assassins and their skills weren't thoroughly thought out for high-end PvE and therefore their design may contribute to making them a very weak option in PvE groups.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pve-er

GW is a team game, please don't try to make each of the charactor capable to solo mobs on its own.

I'm trying to bring the Assassin's energy management and effectiveness of the Critical Defense and Way of Perfection more in line with what you experience in PvP. They all fire off more often than in high level area PvE for reasons already explained.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pve-er

Chance of criticle strike for Assassin already much higher then other profession.

Other professions don't depend on critical hits. Assassins do. They balanced it in terms of PvP where it's reasonable to assume everyone's a level 20 target. I fear they may have overlooked the complete ramifications of an assassin in a high level PvE area.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pve-er

for the critical defence and way of perfection issue, ANet already buff Critical Strike by reducing its cost to 5e with recharge of 6 sec.

I'm not sure the whole issue should be disregarded with a "Critical Strike must always be brought in high level PvE areas". Where's the balance?

Quote:

so it can be spammable to keep critical defence up, and they already buff in the amount of healing from Way of Perfection (yeah, but I wish to seeit even higher, higher is better. compare to vigorous spirit, WoP give health ONLY when criticle strike ocur, they should give more health bonus to WoP cuz the low late of activation).

It could be me and my lag but spamming Wild Blow (5 second recharge) didn't work for me. And they can buff Way of Perfection to a million life restored per Critical Hit if they want but it'll always be a lame duck if it can't be fired off in a timely or reasonably reliable manner. I seriously think they went the wrong way with their fix for Way of Perfection. Keeping it the old values and fixing critical hits for assassins or changing the conditions when it would fire off would've been better.

Try using Way of Perfection vs. a level 20 and note how many times it fires off and do the same vs. a level 28. The regularity of it's heal and the amount healed should be based on the level 20 target; ergo what can we conclude other than it's (lethally) inadequate in high level PvE areas. If ANet adjusts it for a level 28, then it will be overpowered in PvP. My suggestion is to mitigate if not outright remove level disparity as a factor in calculating critical hits for assassins only in PvE because they aren't a factor in PvP where most skill balance happen. This will hopefully make a PvE assassin more in tune with a PvP one.

My position is this. The assassin was made with critical hits as an integral part of it's design. Energy management is dependent on it as well as 2 defensive skills. I'm purposely not addressing the offensive aspect of it in my posts because as of now, I'm only concerned with an assassin's energy and defensive problems. I actually think the offense capabilities of an assassin are pretty good even before the last skill updates (aside from a few skills like Sharpen Daggers which suffer from this problem) so I was pretty disappointed that most of the buffs were for offense.

Anyway, an assassin's attributes and skill design were designed around PvP (an assumption on my part but a reasonable one I think). That means any balances made were for level 20 targets. It may have been an oversight on ANet's part not to consider > 20 level targets. And why should they? No other profession nor their skills' effectiveness were even marginally skewed by > 20 targets. But assassins and their skills are. Given that, it's no wonder that the assassin's strengths and capabilities seem less than stellar when pitted against level 24+ targets.

As long as this stands, I fear assassins will be regarded as okay to excellent in PvP and lame ducks in PvE (and justifiably so).

Peace,
Xyngynkynyn

unholy guardian · Sep 17, 2006, 05:05 AM // 05:05

well eles lose more power than sins against level 28 mobs... they gain such an advantage since ele damage is based on armor and level.

Master Fuhon · Sep 17, 2006, 05:31 AM // 05:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by unholy guardian

well eles lose more power than sins against level 28 mobs... they gain such an advantage since ele damage is based on armor and level.

Don't just take information out of context. Critical hits aren't entirely about damage for an assassin. Critical hits are about renewing certain defensive skills, and getting the energy returns to be able to repeat attack combos enough times to kill a higher level enemy.

Elementalist damage is reduced by high level enemies, and then furthermore by the higher armor levels that the monsters are given to become a higher challenge. But you forget the important factor that elementalist total damage scales as you add more enemies. Assassins don't have much going for them when you start to add more higher level enemies if the Critical Hits aren't landing.

Xeln · Sep 17, 2006, 07:30 AM // 07:30

I think Xyngynkynyn might very well have hit on the most important factor that leads to everyone saying assassins suck (other than 12 year olds). We all know that sins still rule in PvP, but in PvE they suck. Everytime people start complaining about their sin not being able to get groups, or not surviving very long, or any of the other myriad complaints they have they are almost invariably complaints about the performance of assassins in PvE, starting about the time you leave the area around KC in factions. Our usefulness declines drastically once we start hitting targets around level 24ish. Granted, we can still spike pretty well, but any chance of sustainable DPS is gone, and it becomes rather unlikely that you can drop a target in a single spike.

To combat these issues we have developed a rather pointless existence in PvE. "Good" assassins are expected to simply shadow step in, drop a monk, and come back out unharmed. While this tactic while effective, is rarely successful, due to the difficulty of dropping a target in one round, and the chances of surviving. "Bad" assassins are anyone who does anything other than the above. These two options are based almost entirely upon the surviveability of assassins. As we all know, we don't have the armor to be tanks, and I'm not saying we should, but our odds at surviving in the mix are basically zero, even with the few defensive skills we have. With a little practice an assassin CAN stay alive on the front line (not as a tank, just as a damage dealer), but to do it requires you to use Flashing Blades, Critical Eye, Way of Perfection, Critical Defences and Critical Strikes. Thats five of your eight skills right there, as well as your elite, and you still need two more for your lead and off hand attacks. If you take a fast lead and off hand you can spam your combo like a madman and barely survive, but your monk will probably still hate you. The fact that we don't really have the energy to either drop a single target effectively, or to survive just makes the whole situation even worse.

If we had a higher crit rate on mobs above 20 then we wouldn't need to do this because we could realisticly rely on crits from our normal attacks, and our skills to keep all our critical strike abilities active. More importantly, this would do two other things.

First, it would bring back effective energy recharge. Before hitting mobs over 20 we never worry that much about our energy because we can drop most things in one combo, or we crit enough to regain our energy to the point where we can start our combo again. But once you lose the ability to crit you lose the ability to regenerate energy effectively, which in turn reduces the effectiveness of the class as a whole. The changes made to the Critical Strike ability merely prove that we are basically forced to use it to recharge our energy, even a little, and to activate other things.

The second thing it would do is allow assassins the freedom that makes this game so great. The reason most of us play this game is the ability to play our characters how we want to. Assassins, as they are now in relation to PvE, don't have much in the way of choices. If we EVER want a group, or if we want to live longer than 1.5 seconds we MUST build our characters to one of the two choices above (only one of which will get you a group, rarely at that). The recent changes to our skills make this even clearer since they only changed skills that affect the survivablity of assassins when taking the second of the two choices of style.

Assassins as a whole are being forced into choosing one of two styles of play, neither of which is that effective. Why can't we have the freedom to choose a myriad of different viable builds and have each of them more or less effective than the last, instead of just two?

Yukito Kunisaki · Sep 17, 2006, 07:43 PM // 19:43

I feel that pressure too.

My sin is like, henchie only about 90% of the time, and my wife, whose sin is trying be like Ragnarok Online's Assassin [aka, wannabe tank], never gets a group...

ah the pain...

Either you go with GPS, Horn Ox, Falling Spider, Twisting Fangs, or your combo will always suck...

What's worse, there is no better sin combo in the game for doing the dmg you should be doing, aka, instant kill....

Oh and let's not forget that past lvl 24 monsters don't EVER GET CRIT!! What's that mean? A sin's dmg is in the toilet since the daggers are the weakest melee weapon in the game at maximum dmg...

seven · Sep 17, 2006, 11:27 PM // 23:27

agreed.

it isn't about damage, but rather the energy management that comes from the critical strikes attribute. for every monster 5 levels above you, you lose a drastic 50% chance to crit. late game there are so many mobs around at level 25+. sure sassys have e-management skills like black lotus, however the recharge time is still limited.

crit damage from sassys is nothing overpowered if the monster lvl crit penalty is removed. most sassys depends on skill spike dmg rather than dmg from auto-attack crits. daggers only do a measly 7-17 dmg. crit damage is just approximately max dmg (17) x √2 or max weap dmg + 4 weapon mastery added to your current rank ... which really isn't much. also, do remember that the petition to remove the crit penalty is only for pve, a place where sassys are already having a hard time getting invited in, even with the recent buffs.

it is doubtful that sassys will be "overpowered" in pve if anet decides to remove the lvl-crit penalty. observe an early to mid-game mission where most of the monsters are just around lvl 20 ... where sassys do an average 30% chance to crit. did they seem overpowered compared to the other clases in pve?

at late game, it gets harder and harder to fuel combos since the chances of getting energy from crit srtikes are extremely rare.

let's take a particular scenario of a sassy running 14dm and 13crit strikes,
mastery gives roughly 1.44% per rank to crit, crit strikes gives 1% per rank.
14dm is 20.2% + 13% = 33.2% which is quite okay. not really overpowered since you'll only be getting a measly 3 en for roughly every 3 attacks.

as we know there are quite many monsters that are actually lvl 25 and up,
which cuts drastically the chances. in raisu, lvl 28's are common, which cuts down the chances even more. even critical eye only gives +6% at rank 13cs, and +3% after the enemy lvl reduction isn't much at all.

at 14dm(20.2%) at 13(13%) cs, you'll get 33.2% chance to crit on a target
of the same lvl. (assumed 20)
when targetting a monster in pve that is lvl 25, you'll only have 16.6% chance to crit at the same attributes.
when targetting a monster in pve that is lvl 30, you'll only have 8.3% chance to crit at the same attributes.

unlike expertise, soul reaping, fast casting, energy storage, ect. these prime attributes doesn't have decaying effectiveness even at late game mobs. you still gain the same energy when a monster dies, you still cast faster even at lvl 30 enemies.

ubermancer · Sep 18, 2006, 01:09 AM // 01:09

WRONG.

Armor including spell damage includes not only armor, but LEVEL into its calculation.

Nevin · Sep 18, 2006, 03:06 AM // 03:06

Every 3 ranks of Critical Strikes should add +1 damage while using daggers.

pve-er · Sep 18, 2006, 04:04 AM // 04:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by seven

agreed.
at 14dm(20.2%) at 13(13%) cs, you'll get 33.2% chance to crit on a target
of the same lvl. (assumed 20)
when targetting a monster in pve that is lvl 25, you'll only have 16.6% chance to crit at the same attributes.
when targetting a monster in pve that is lvl 30, you'll only have 8.3% chance to crit at the same attributes.

unlike expertise, soul reaping, fast casting, energy storage, ect. these prime attributes doesn't have decaying effectiveness even at late game mobs. you still gain the same energy when a monster dies, you still cast faster even at lvl 30 enemies.

Now I understand the point here, thank for your detail explanation.
so, correct me if I am wrong, but basically the description for Critcal Attack attribute should be level ignoring like:

For each rank of Critical Attack, you have additional 1.4% chance to deal critical hit, THIS BONUS IGNORES THE LEVEL OF YOUR TARGET.

it seems reasonable to me cuz other primary attribute are not effected by target's level, am i correct ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevin

Every 3 ranks of Critical Strikes should add +1 damage while using daggers.

this seriously effect the ballanbe in PvP :P

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

I feel that pressure too.

My sin is like, henchie only about 90% of the time, and my wife, whose sin is trying be like Ragnarok Online's Assassin [aka, wannabe tank], never gets a group...

ah the pain...

Either you go with GPS, Horn Ox, Falling Spider, Twisting Fangs, or your combo will always suck...

What's worse, there is no better sin combo in the game for doing the dmg you should be doing, aka, instant kill....

Oh and let's not forget that past lvl 24 monsters don't EVER GET CRIT!! What's that mean? A sin's dmg is in the toilet since the daggers are the weakest melee weapon in the game at maximum dmg...

sorry to say, but I NEVER use the Ox Spider combo, they are amazing in PvP but in PvE, they are quite limited. because:
1. high recharge time, GPS sucks on it
2. High Energy usage
3. dmg are limited when facing non-flesh foe

I was in Napui Quarter helping people on mission (to correct the bad name of Sin) I was in a team with 2 Sins (me and another who is good Sin, he is good killer and stay ok in battle). We have a littel chat after the mission. he use Ox Spider combo. we agree that Ox Spider Combo has the weakness mentioned above and he ask for my build which seem like I can throw out more combo before I get dried and do more damage on non-flesh foe.
I am not saying Ox Spider sucks but there are more usable combo in PvE

seven · Sep 18, 2006, 04:25 AM // 04:25

yes, levels of the target do factor in.

the rough estimate of added 1.4% per rank is in the weapon masteries of any type (sword, markmanship, dagger, ect.)

CS only adds 1% per rank, but isn't explicitly listed in the description.
it just says it increases crit chances and for each critical hit, the sassy receives 1 energy at rank 3 and above, 2 energy at rank 8 and above, and 3 energy at rank 13 and above.

but yes, pve-er you are correct, we're just asking that the crit bonuses of sassys does not decay as they face lvl 25-30+ monsters in pve, and only for pve.

pve-er · Sep 18, 2006, 04:30 AM // 04:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by seven

yes, levels of the target do factor in.

the rough estimate of added 1.4% per rank is in the weapon masteries of any type (sword, markmanship, dagger, ect.)

CS only adds 1% per rank, but isn't explicitly listed in the description.
it just says it increases crit chances and for each critical hit, the sassy receives 1 energy at rank 3 and above, 2 energy at rank 8 and above, and 3 energy at rank 13 and above.

but yes, pve-er you are correct, we're just asking that the crit bonuses of sassys does not decay as they face lvl 25-30+ monsters in pve, and only for pve.

DO I get reward of being correct

ubermancer · Sep 18, 2006, 04:40 AM // 04:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by seven

yes, levels of the target do factor in.

the rough estimate of added 1.4% per rank is in the weapon masteries of any type (sword, markmanship, dagger, ect.)

CS only adds 1% per rank, but isn't explicitly listed in the description.
it just says it increases crit chances and for each critical hit, the sassy receives 1 energy at rank 3 and above, 2 energy at rank 8 and above, and 3 energy at rank 13 and above.

but yes, pve-er you are correct, we're just asking that the crit bonuses of sassys does not decay as they face lvl 25-30+ monsters in pve, and only for pve.

What the hell is a sassy.

pve-er · Sep 18, 2006, 04:45 AM // 04:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubermancer

What the hell is a sassy.

He mean Assassin.
Assassin has so many nick names

(Sin, Ass, Sassy, Noob?!)

Skuld · Sep 18, 2006, 07:44 AM // 07:44

MM fodder? :P

Xyngynkynyn · Sep 18, 2006, 09:57 AM // 09:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubermancer

WRONG.

Armor including spell damage includes not only armor, but LEVEL into its calculation.

I don't really have any data on spell damage calculation to dispute you and searching for "spell damage calculation" here and the Wiki didn't return anything pertinent. For my own personal education, please cite your source on this matter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by seven

but yes, pve-er you are correct, we're just asking that the crit bonuses of sassys does not decay as they face lvl 25-30+ monsters in pve, and only for pve.

Yes but let me make it clear that as a programmer myself, I do not advocate two separate formulas (one for PvP and another for PvE) when calculating critical hits. It's just too inelegant and open to errors when you have to maintain 2 different systems. I'd rather one equation that covers both PvP and PvE.

One solution for instance can be to replace the target's level with a value called "effective target's level" in the equation they use to calculate critical hits.

We can then set the "effective target's level" as follows (in pseudo C++ code)

Code:

if (Attacker.PrimaryProfession==ASSASSIN)
    EffectiveTargetLevel=min(Attacker.CharacterLevel, Target.CharacterLevel);
else
    EffectiveTargetLevel=Target.CharacterLevel;

NOTE: min() will return the smaller of the 2 values.

Basically the above code says to set the target's effective level to that of the attacker's only if the attacker is a primary assassin and the target 's level is higher than the assassin's. Ergo a level 20 assassin attacking a level 28 Oni would get critical hits as if the Oni were level 20 and the level 28 Oni would hit the level 20 assassin as if the assassin were STILL level 20.

This alteration would solve the PvE problem and have minimal impact in PvP seeing as only level 26 Flesh Golems would be affected by this but hopefully the solution will outweigh that. With a level 20 attacker vs. level 20 target however, this code would yield the same result as what we have now in PvP.

There is a problem with this however. Since I don't have access to the actual critical hit formula, I don't really know what impact a level 10 assassin will have on a level 20 target in PvP under this system so I can't really recommend this.

Another idea I have on how to fix this is reflected in the thread's title; namely reducing the target's level based on the Critical Strike attribute. It goes like this:

Code:

EffectiveTargetLevel=max(Attacker.CharacterLevel,
  Target.CharacterLevel-Attacker.CriticalStrike)

NOTE: max() will return the larger of the 2 values.

The above code basically says that the target's effective level should be reduced by 1 for each point the character has in Critical Strike. Therefore, an assassin with 8 in Critical Strike will hit a level 28 target as if it were a level 20 target but it would hit Glint (level 31) as if she were a level 23 target. The effective level reduction though must not be lower than the attacker's (hence, the max()); otherwise level 20 assassins with 16 Critical Strike in PvP would be scoring critical hits vs. level 4 targets.

Again, since I don't have access to the actual critical hit formula, I also don't know what impact a level 10 assassin with 10 in Critical Strike will have on a level 20 target in PvP under this system so again I can't really recommend this either.

These 2 examples however do illustrate how one equation can serve both PvP and PvE needs and this is the kind of approach I hope ANet will adopt. In this way, they can continue to balance assassin skills in PvP without concerning themselves about how they'll measure up vs. > 20+ targets any more than any of the other professions.

Peace,
Xyngynkynyn

Yanman.be · Sep 18, 2006, 02:09 PM // 14:09

This is why you use zealous daggers in High-end PvE.

dawnrain · Sep 18, 2006, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by seven

agreed.

at 14dm(20.2%) at 13(13%) cs, you'll get 33.2% chance to crit on a target
of the same lvl. (assumed 20)
when targetting a monster in pve that is lvl 25, you'll only have 16.6% chance to crit at the same attributes.
when targetting a monster in pve that is lvl 30, you'll only have 8.3% chance to crit at the same attributes.

Has anyone verified that the above example is accurate? How was it determined that the additional bonus from the critical strike attribute (and critical eye) is not factored in AFTER the adjustment for level differences? I.e. Maybe the above example is actually:

at 14dm(20.2%) at 13(13%) cs, you'll get 33.2% chance to crit on a target
of the same lvl. (assumed 20)
when targetting a monster in pve that is lvl 25, you'll only have 23.1% (20.2% * 1/2 + 13%) chance to crit at the same attributes.
when targetting a monster in pve that is lvl 30, you'll only have 18.0% (20.2% * 1/4 + 13%) chance to crit at the same attributes.

If critical strikes is calcualted this way, then it is independent of mob level and would be comparable to all other Primary attributes.